Of shoes, and ships, and sealing wax...

[chaletian]

So, at the moment, I’m reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, and this has led me to think about, well, OK, myself (no use departing from tradition, after all) in terms of my religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

I was sort of brought up as a Christian. Which means to say, my parents were married in a C of E church, as were most of my other relatives, as far as I’m aware (I have no idea if my parents believe in God; I have never asked them about it (it would be rude, after all *g*, and it’s not something we talk about). I was christened. I don’t know if my schools were non-denominational in theory, but throughout my entire school career, from the ages of 5 to 17, I went to a recognizably Christian assembly every day, sang Christian hymns, and said Christian prayers. I went to boarding school for a while at the beginning of senior school, and attended church (Methodist, in this case) every Sunday, with evening prayers on Thursday. I was confirmed when I was 11 or 12, after attending confirmation classes led by our school chaplain (ah, Mr Topping, he was a card…).

I don’t know if I ever actually believed in God. Obviously, my memory of childhood is sketchy at best, but I don’t remember any moment where I specifically thought ‘I believe in God.’ I think it is true to say that I don’t ever remember believing in God, and despite my confirmation, I don’t think I gave it any thought at all as a child. As soon as I recall giving it any thought, I knew I didn’t believe it. I have been an atheist (for definite, that I can remember) from the age of about 13, and probably younger.

I believe in evolution, and have done as far back as I can remember (again, not really saying a great deal). That is, I don’t *believe*. Rationally speaking, it seems the most likely explanation for how the world arrived in the place it did. Should it ever be disproven, and a more likely explanation offered, I should (probably reluctantly; I don’t do change well) have to go with that new explanation. We don’t know everything in the world. Maybe we can’t know everything (like one of those eternal one-over-infinity maths problems, where you never quite reach a finite answer). But we can theorise, and approach the questions surrounding our existence as scientifically and rationally as possible.

I think the concept of the existence of God is ludicrous. There is no evidence for God’s existence, ever. I know, you’re not supposed to need proof. You just need faith. But how ridiculous is that? Here’s a thing. You can’t proof it exists. But if you really, really believe hard enough, then that’s fine. It exists. What, is God Tinkerbell? The world is just… the world. It is part of a solar system, which is part of a galaxy, which is part of the universe. How did it start? I haven’t the foggiest. It’s always possible that God did indeed leap forth and create the whole thing, but that seems as unlikely as any other explanation. How did life begin on earth? Don’t know that either. But once again, God probably ranks pretty low as the originator on a scale of possibility. Maybe God does exist after all, but it seems, as the years clock on, increasingly unlikely. Through millennia of gradual change, the world came to be the one we know, and that’s all there is to say about (well, from my generally uneducated point of view; I’m sure the scientific community can go on for a bit longer on the subject).

I know that, officially, the Anglican church and, I think, the Catholic church have discounted creationism as an actual theory of the beginning of the world. But there are still an alarming number of people who seem to believe that all of science is wrong, and God created man as it is now (more or less), presumably in the midst of creating trees and mountains and light and dark and jam and trousers etc etc etc (but not, you know, gays or anything… *g*). This is one of the reasons why I think religion is dangerous, because it leads people to believe that abandoning rational thought is fine and dandy. So what if there’s evidence that man has been bopping around on this earth for quite a long time, and the earth itself has been there for considerably longer? Fuck it! God created it all in an afternoon less than 10,000 years ago. As you do. And yes, of course I know this doesn’t apply to everyone who’s religious, and believing in God *obviously* doesn’t mean that you’re daft, and equally not-believing doesn’t make you better than people who do.

But I still think disbelief is a more rational way forward (with, always, the potential for a mind change should God suddenly descend and make his presence known, because as with so many things in life, we can’t know 100% for sure either way).

Comments

[chaletian.livejournal.com]

I don't doubt that faith can *in itself* effect, for example, a patient's recovery. But surely that is merely a psychological issue? It doesn't prove the existence of a supernatural deity, merely that for some people, the simple act of believing in a supernatural deity can make a difference to them. It doesn't make it true.

[bluebellbicycle.livejournal.com]

The importance of a supernatural deity in my argument is providing a very necessary focus-point. Blind faith doesn't have the effect that a concentrated effortful faith does, and the idea of God in whatever form you like, provides an easy target really for focussing on. God is a useful tool in this sense. It doesn't make the existence of God true, but it does make the possibility of his existence have an effect on reality.

[chaletian.livejournal.com]

But as you've said, all the psychological benefits of believing in God don't make it *true*. Just because having faith in God, even having to struggle with that faith and finding it all the more meaningful, does not prove his existence. Are there benefits to believing in God? Yep, sure. It's comfort. It's believing someone cares. It's believing your existence has meaning. It's believing there's a *point*. But you might as easily believe in the Greek pantheon of gods, or, I don't know, *whatever*. The fact that believing can be good for you doesn't prove that the object of that belief exists.

And I'm not sure that, logically, "the possibility of his existence" can have an effect on reality. If that were so, the possibility of his existence would have an effect on *everyone's* reality, surely? I think what you mean is that the *belief* in the possibility (or even certainty) of his existence has an effect on reality, which brings you back to it being a psychological issue that has no bearing one way or another on the *actual* existence or otherwise of God.

[bluebellbicycle.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do keep to the point the whole time that there is no proof that God exists. What I'm trying to say I suppose is that in many (most?) ways, it *doesn't matter* whether or not there is, in fact, a fat bearded man in the sky. Just the idea that there might be, is enough for people to reap the benefits of religion and/or communal psychological direction (I don't really think there's a difference between those two). The fact is that in our part of the world, a Christian God is the one that most people imagine about. If we were having this conversation in another part of the world, my point would be exactly the same, except substituting the word Buddha, or whatever, for 'God'.

I think that the positive-communal-thinking-thing has an effect on reality, including those who aren't participating in it. It isn't just a comfort thing in that sense.

Is this guy focussed (as you seem to be?) purely on the Christian idea of God? Or is he talking about supernatural beings in general. Or gods through history?

[chaletian.livejournal.com]

Supernatural deities in general though with emphasis on Christianity, Judaism and Islam (being the main one, personal god religions). I'm fixating on Christianity because it's basically the only one I know about, though I suspect in terms of simple faith etc, my opinions go for all of them.

As to whether it *matters*... oh boy, I think it matters. Back in the day, if you professed not to believe in God (or, because few people did that, believed in something that was a bit different to other people) you might get KILLED. In some places in the world that still happens today. George W believes that God wanted him to invade Iraq. Fundamentalists of all religions are willing to kill other people because they believe their faith is the right one. How can the existence or non-existence of God not *matter*? I'm not saying that if there were no religion, the world would be a happy and loving place, because I don't think it would (and, in fact, I think many so-called religious wars in centuries gone by have had very little to do with religion and very much more to do with power and land and wealth). But I do think that religion is one thing that's really helped scupper the possibility of world peace. Rather ironically.